VA Played Fast and Loose With the Facts – So, How Good Are They Really?

May 15, 2007

The Veterans’ Administration has been promoting its effectiveness for some time, based on both administrative and clinical measures. As a result, some health reformers have even taken to touting the VA as a model for national health reform. Now their findings and the VA’s veracity are being challenged by a new report. The VA still has its defenders, but I have questions about other favorable studies of the agency (see below.)

They’ve done some things very well, but there’s no reason to believe the VA is a model for the nation. The issue should be resolved through a comprehensive analysis of their medical outcomes conducted by unbiased analysts.

An in-depth journalistic investigation now suggests that the VA has been misleading policymakers and the public about its accomplishments for some time. The gamesmanship reported by McClatchy ranged from the relatively trivial (e.g. changing request dates in the appointment system to make wait times appear shorter) to the more substantive.

Deceptions about appointment wait times and patient satisfaction are wrong, and overstating the availability of PTSD treatment is reprehensible. (Why not ask for the money to give vets what they need?) Still, in my opinion, skewing clinical data to overstate results is the most serious charge of all. A RAND study cited by the VA didn’t say what VA officials claimed it said: namely, that the VA performed better than 12 other systems. Officials went on to say that RAND had concluded that veterans “receive better health care than any other patients in America.” The RAND study was not designed for that purpose, and found no such thing.

McClatchy raises questions about the RAND study’s objectivity, given the fact that four of its nine authors were affiliated with the VA and the agency helped fund the study. RAND’s objectivity is well-regarded by me and others, so I’m less concerned about this issue.

The newspaper’s other question about the RAND study is far more telling: It was published in 2004, yet only used data from 1997 to 1999. In my consulting experience, unexpected date ranges raise a red flag – could the data have been cherry-picked to get the best results?

Something like that could well happen without RAND’s complicity – if they were engaged to study a certain data set, that’s what they would do. The selective use of data could occur when the client engaged the consultant/think tank to do the work. I’ve seen it happen a number of times in my data analysis work, although its more typical of the private sector.

Some people like Ezra Klein are still arguing that the VA’s quality is unsurpassed, based on pieces like the ones published in the New England Journal of Medicine. Yet I have similar concerns about the New England Journal pieces, as well. One such article (“Effect of the Transformation of the Veterans Affairs Health Care System On the Quality of Care”) was published in 2003 yet used essentially the same date range as the RAND study – and focused on a fairly limited number of conditions.

McClatchy notes rightly that the VA has performed very well in providing necessary tests and services. And Ezra and other are right to note its excellent performance in a number of areas. But analyzing health data is a tricky affair.

The VA may have more to say in its defense, but I found the explanations they offered to McClatchy unconvincing. Here’s the way to resolve the issue once and for all: fund a comprehensive review of the VA’s outcomes, conducted by independent analysts with full access to all of the VA’s data.

Until that happens, I’m not comfortable with any of the rosy reports on the VA’s effectiveness. They may well be doing a terrific job in outcomes, but there’s no independent verification of that fact. Until there is, I would argue that using the VA as a model for national reform should be put on hold.


22 Responses to “VA Played Fast and Loose With the Facts – So, How Good Are They Really?”

  1. […] VA Played Fast and Loose With the Facts – So, How Good Are They Really? […]

  2. […] been held up as an example as to why a centralized health care system works well. An interesting post from The Sentinel Effect looks at a North Carolina’s The News & Observer column (”VA Overselling its medical […]

  3. […] a new Veterans’ Administration scandal brewing. A McClatchy investigation suggests that senior VA officials falsified report data and […]

  4. […] course, there has been significant criticism of the actual effectiveness of VA health measures, but the theory remains promising. By creating a […]

  5. Claudette Campbell Says:

    I am interested in reading a textbook on the Veterans Administration Health Care system. I support out-sourcing the care of veterans with TBS and PTSD to the private sector. Are you aware of any studies or text on this subject. The public vs private debate much be aaddressed if we are to provide the best care to veterans, particularly, in view of the shortcomings exposed as a result of the Washington Post recent expose on the care at the Walther Reed Army Medical Center.

    Claudette Campbell

  6. John Chalus Says:

    I am currently a disabled vet who is now having my case reviewed to see if I actually deserve benefits for PTSD. I am a Former US Navy SEAL with a combat deployment to Vietnam. I would say they ought to take a look at the fraud, waste and overpayment in their own system before they start going after Vets. My son is also a former SEAL who was medically discharged. Obviously he was a very healthy young man when the Navy got him. Healthy enough to become a SEAL and serve for ten years. When he was discharged he had muscle spasms pain in all of his joints and a totally messed up back. He couldn’t even pick up his children to hug them. The Navy gave him $35,000 in severance pay. When he applied to the VA for disability they awarded him 70%. He couldn’t collect the full amount until he paid back every cent. Well he has done that and then some. Guess what they owe him money. They haven’t made a single payment since he notified them 3 months ago. He gets his monthly ckeck but it is still short several hundred dollars. They also have yet to give him the recent raise of 3%. Their idea of pain management is to give him pain killing drugs including morphine. I have been with him at the VA hospital in Philadelphia when he has had to wait for three hours to get to see the doctor. Then he has to wait from 2 to 6 hours to get his perscription filled. I have seen Veterans have to be carried in to the hospital by other Vets because no one on staff could find a wheel chair. I could go on but the VA might be monitoring this site. Then they would really screw me and my son. Thanks for reading this. First class care my eye.

  7. E. Says:

    I am a vet and have had the “opportunity” to be treated at 5 separate VAMC’s. The waiting timessound excessive even by way of comparison to any of the 5 VAMC’s I’ve used. Try filing a IRIS complaint from the VA home page.
    It seems to be effective in making changes. . .

    Staffing seems to be a problem atmany of the VA’s. I usually try to submit my prescription before another appointment or else I get by mail rather than wait. I also use phone refill system which works pretty good. Also, many times seeking your Congressman may help grease the wheals. Good Luck!the wheels.

  8. William H. Heino Sr. Says:

    In response to……………….VA prescription overcharges

    Sunday April 6, 10:13 am ET
    By Hope Yen, Associated Press Writ

    AP IMPACT: VA Workers Charge $2.6B on Gov’t Credit Cards at Luxury Hotels, High-End Retailers
    WASHINGTON (AP) — Veterans Affairs employees last year racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars in government credit-card bills at casino and luxury hotels, movie theaters and high-end retailers such as Sharper Image and Franklin Covey — and government auditors are investigating, citing past spending abuses.
    All told, VA staff charged $2.6 billion to their government credit cards.
    Yes, and then there are those few veterans, including my brother, criticize me for going after my claim, VA violation of 1722a, split pill co-payment overcharges. Well, along with the acknowledgement by many veterans, I’m glad I’m doing it. Because this is what happens when you are not vigilant, with nobody watching the store. Here are just a few remarks, regarding my claim, from those that apparently have more money than others, and march to a different drummer.
    = —————————————-
    “So what exactly do you want them to do? Other than waste the time and money of the VA dealing with a trivial claim so that they can’t help other veterans.”
    “It really bothers me to see people waste the VA’s resources on things like this. It probably cost the VA thousands of dollars to work this claim up to the point of the BOVA, not to mention a lot of time of the people working in the VA. Even if you would have won on the claim, it would have wound up costing the VA more money so they could set up a new accounting system to deal with the change. That would likely cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars and would not really have benefited anyone that I can see.”
    = ——————————-
    Veterans get prescription drug benefits? I’d love to complain about $8.00 prescriptions. Every attempt I’ve made to get into the VA Health System I’ve been told I don’t have any benefits.
    It’s annoying to hear some people complain about what they are getting while others of us are “locked out” of the system entirely.

    HOGWASH! I suggest you do some homework.
    No one is doubting your claim, as much as why you are doing it. What they are trying to say is, you are tying up valuable resources that could be better served to adjudicate an individuals claim that had to go the way of the courts. What they are saying, also, is be thankful you have the VA who charges much less a co-pay than what most greedy outside civilian insurance companies charge. When I had outside insurance, before I became TDIU, I was paying $15.00, $20.00, and $25.00 as my co-pays for my medication, so 8 dollars is fairly trivial an amount to pay for prescriptions, not to mention people that have to pay full price for medications…co-pays do not exist for them. So I do understand where you are coming from and where you are trying to go, it just seems like you are trying shove this issue down everyones collective throats to get your point. Good luck in your endeavors, yet I hope some other veterans claim hasn’t been backed up because of your want to change what seems to you to be an inequity seen only by you.
    The VA violation of 38 USC 1722a problem is not petty, or trivial as suggested, using the words of another veteran who thought that the VA money and effort should be spent doing the serious work of the VA in helping veterans. How did the VA employee do that? By living it up, buying and enjoying things for personal use on the government dime. My claim, VA violation of 38 USC 1722a effects all veterans, and I imagine most veterans, that receive VA prescriptions that require pill splitting.

    If a veteran is charged $16 for, using the Board of Veterans’ Appeals description, of an actual dispensed 30-day $8 medication supply, add up this VA dispensed $8 overcharge by the well over 1.1 million veterans that require their medication be split. (You’ll be adding up just one months overcharges). All the while, employee’s using government credit cards for what-ever.

    John E. Ormand, Jr. BVA Veterans Law Judge, writes, “Also, under 38 USC 1722a, VA may not require a veteran to pay an amount of the actual cost of medication and pharmacy administration costs related to the dispensing of medication.” And what is the dispensing cost for a 30-day supply? $8. Why then does this dispensed actual 30-day $8 supply cost a veteran $16? Because he is required to split his pill medication. In other words, you can have any amount for a 30-day, $8 supply, but if you are required to split any supply over 30 pills, the VA will double the copay cost. The USC or the CFR do not mention anything about doubling the cost of prescriptions, when the prescription requirement calls for the veteran split their pill medication.

    Should I win my claim, this is not money the VA would be losing, this is money the VA should never had taken from veterans in the first place. My claim was remanded back to the BVA from the United States Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims. I was notified of this remand on July 16, 2007. On Feb. 11, 2008, I called the BVA inquiring about my claim. I was told it was “coming back from the Court, but hasn’t reached us yet.” Today, 4/10/2008, I called asking for it’s status. “Still at the Court of Veterans Appeals.” It’s now been 9 months! Are they not in the same town? Is this such a hot item that the VA does not want to adjudicate it? This is how our courts work. This is how the VA works. Think this is bad? You haven’t seen nothing yet. Wait till our men and women return from Iraq and Afghanistan.


    For the reasons made obvious as you read, the Board of Veterans’ Appeals, so-called veterans’ court, once again, are determined in frustrating my efforts in appealing my claim, by a still further delay. Is there something about this case that warrants this delay?
    Could the reason be, of the well over 1.1 million VA prescriptions, some veterans are being over-charged?
    My claim, VA violation of 38 USC 1722A was denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals. I then filed with the United States Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims (CVA). On 7/11/2007 was remanded back to the Veterans Board of Appeals (BVA). The BVA lost and rebuilt the file, that being the reason for the remand. After repeated checking, as of 6/9/08, now 11 months later, this remand, has not been returned to the BVA. So they say. It is obvious they may have lost it again in order that this claim, or I, would go away. Disappear. Perhaps I’ll die? Case closed!
    VA prescriptions are dispensed in supplies of 90 days. However, for those unfamiliar with my claim, to explain these over-charges by the VA in violation of 38 USC 1722A, this example will be at it’s simplest and most understandable throughout my explanation, . Let’s say that you are at the VA, standing in line getting your prescription. The vet in front of you is getting the exact same prescription. She picks up her 30 day supply of 30 pills. Her copay for a 30 day supply of 30 pills is $8. You also are dispensed an $8 supply of 30 pills of the same exact prescription. Being that your condition is not as severe, your prescription requires you to split this 30 pill $8 supply. After you sit down at your kitchen table and split your 30 pill supply, now you have 60 split pills, a 2 month supply. But hold on! Except your co-payment cost for this 30 pill, $8 supply, now that it has been split, has increased. It now carries a co-payment of $16. This explains how veterans’ has been overcharged by the VA since 2002. Shafted again (3/13/07) by the Board of Veterans Appeals in their phony denial. Do you see anything wrong? You should!
    “Pursuant to Section 20.1404(b) (2002), the motion alleging clear and unmistakable error in a prior Board decision must set forth clearly and specifically the alleged clear and unmistakable error, or errors, of fact or law in the Board decision, the legal or factual basis for such allegations, and why the result would have been different but for the alleged error.”
    The two persons listed on the denial that had crafted, and fashioned up the logic that follows? Board of Veterans’ Appeals counsel M. Taylor, and Veterans’ Law Judge, Judge John E. Ormand. I will show you exactly where, in their efforts to mislead, and to rewrite the law. This is the kind of garbage veterans have to put up with! Let’s look at the reasoning in their BVA denial.
    Cited on the cover page of my denial was, “THE ISSUE. Whether the veteran is obligated to pay the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) a copayment for each 30-day or less supply of medication provided by the VA on an outpatient basis in an amount established under 39 C.F.R. § 17.110.”
    “Criteria & Analysis by the Board of Veterans Appeals.” 3/13/ 2007
    Here the Board understands the problem. “The record reflects that the appellant is prescribed a 12.5 mg daily dose of his medication. Because the medication is not dispensed in a 12.5 mg tablet, his physician has instructed him to split a 25 mg tablet in half to achieve the proper daily dosage. Thus, he receives a 30-day prescription consisting of fifteen 25 mg pills, each of which he splits in half to take one half of a pill per day. The appellant contends that the standard co-payment is excessive in light of the pill splitting.” However, no where in my claim did I mention the word ‘standard’, nor was the word ‘standard’ mentioned in 38 USC 1722A, or Federal Register, Final Rule. Here, in introducing ‘standard’, supposedly for the purpose of establishing two (2) ‘standard’ co-payments, counsel Taylor purposely has rewritten the law, in order to mislead.
    “In addition, the Board notes that the reference to the cost of medication contained in 38 U.S.C.A. Sec. 1722A clearly pertains to VA’s cost in dispensing the medication, not the cost to the appellant.” Is there a difference? My claim…clearly pertains to VA’s co-pay cost in dispensing medication, and it’s inflated cost to the appellant! Which is the “excess of the cost” for the ‘standard’ co-payment, and is then arbitrarily increased, to those veterans required to split their 30-pill, $8 supplies. Dispensed exactly the same, and in like manner, as all other VA dispensed ‘standard’ co-payment and abundant 30-day $8 supplies of 30-45-60-90 pills.
    Counsel Taylor references remarks from the July 16, 2001 Federal Register. “Also, as we stated in the proposal, under 38 U.S.C. 1722A, VA may not require a veteran to pay an amount in excess of the actual cost of the medication and the pharmacy administrative costs related to the dispensing of the medication. VHA conducted a study…and found that the VA incurred a cost of $7.28 to dispense an outpatient medication even without consideration of the actual cost of medication..”
    Dispensing! Where there is no difference in the prescription, supply amount, handling, or dispensing time, a 30 pill supply is dispensed, with a $16 co-payment. Interestingly, in the same exact manner as all 30-day, 30 pill $8 supplies are dispensed, as explained in the Federal Register! No splitting of pills was involved in the dispensing procedure. However, of an exact same $8 dispensed supply, automatically these ‘standard’ 30-day $8 co-payment whole pill supplies are increased 100% (2 month split pill supply).
    Counsel Taylor, citing, “1722A clearly pertains to VA’s cost in dispensing”. Counsel Taylor just does not get it! Nor does Judge Ormand. Their is no difference! No difference in dispensing two supplies that are exactly alike in prescription and supply, or to the cost related to dispensing! However, counsel Taylor is emphatic in making the point, conclusive, that it clearly pertains to the cost in dispensing? Or is it the ISSUE, the ” 30-day or less supply”? For some unknown reason, which counsel Taylor did not elaborate on, a second exact duplicate supply increases, double the co-pay cost? Although, counsel Taylor may have tried, but failed.
    “38 USC 1722A; (a)(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the Secretary shall require a veteran to pay the United States $8 for each 30-day supply of medication furnished such veteran under this chapter on an outpatient basis for the treatment of a non-service-connected disability or condition. If the amount supplied is less than a 30-day supply, the amount of the charge may not be reduced.” Which then also means, if the amount is not less than 30-day supplies, as described in paragraph (1) the Secretary may not require a veteran to pay an amount in excess of the cost for medication provided to a veteran as described in paragraph (2).
    Citing my argument, BVA’s counsel Taylor, quotes inaccurately. An intentional selection and placing of the word, “of” in order to confuse, and again, to mislead. 38 USC 1722A “Copayment for medications. Paragraph (2) The Secretary may not require a veteran to pay an amount in excess of the cost of the Secretary for medication as described in paragraph (1).”
    The correct reading is, “(2) The Secretary may not require a veteran to pay an amount in excess of the cost to the Secretary for medication described in paragraph (1).”
    “The appellant has not cited to, and the Board is unable to find any authority allowing for a deviation from the standard copayment.” The Board is right! I too, am unable to find that authority.
    Where the Board got it wrong! Of all what you have understood and read so far, what follows puts to rest any doubts as to the 30-day medication over-charges in my claim, and refutes the reasoning of the Board of Veterans’ Appeals in their reading of 38 USC 1722A. Of everything that has been explained, BVA counsel Taylor’s reference to 38 USC 17.110, (addressed in my claim) is the key to explaining, what counsel Taylor and Veterans Law Judge John E. Ormand, and the VA failed to, or did not, want to comprehend, or consider in their thinking, in understanding 38 USC 1722A.
    The Board counsel Taylor, referenced 38 USC 17.110; Copayments for Medication. “..a veteran is obligated to pay a copayment for each 30-day or less supply of medication provided by the VA on an outpatient basis (other than medication administered during treatment).”
    Counsel Taylor made it a point to reference 17.110. Veterans’ do know we have to pay a co-payment. THE ISSUE was obviously a “30-day or less supply.” The Board’s main argument to my claim, is their erroneous interpretation of what the law is. “Each 30-day or less supply”, is suggesting to them, an across the board 30-day 15 pill supply is less. However, “..each 30-day or less supply”, refers to only one (1) condition. Veterans who may visit a VA facility on a one time basis as an outpatient. For emergency room care, or see a doctor for a cut finger, brief illness, etc. I wish counsel Taylor would explain another circumstance in which a veteran may be charged an “excess of the cost”? Please enlighten us. I know of no other “excess of the cost” than what I claim.
    Counsel Taylor better not again, bring up 15 pills is less than a 30-day supply! The reality is, a veteran who falls under the 17.110 meaning, “obligated to pay a co-payment for each 30-day or less supply…on an outpatient basis (other than medication administered during treatment.)”, refers to medication, in a dispensed 30-day supply of 15 pills, for treatment on an outpatient basis. The veteran in fact is not receiving less than a 30-day supply, this is his full 30-day monthly supply during outpatient treatment! For this reason, as described in 1722A, paragraph (2) is the basis for my claim. A 30-day, 30-pill, dispensed supply, for treatment, whether or not it is split, according to 1722A carries the maximum co-payment of $8. Which the Board refuses to recognize, but rather relies on a “each 30-day or less” argument. “The secretary may not require a veteran to pay an amount in excess of the cost, for medication described in paragraph (1).” $8 for each dispensed 30-pill, 30-day supply co-payment, includes supplies of the abundant 30-day supplies of 45-60 or 90 pills, and as well for all veterans’ under treatment, receiving a same exact dispensed 30-pill supply. “Other than medication administered during treatment”, a prescribed 2 month supply (split pill).
    Counsel Taylor in an effort in re-enforcing the Board’s position cites “(b) The Secretary, pursuant to regulations which the Secretary shall prescribe may-…(1) increase the co-payment amount in effect under subsection (a);..” Pursuant to regulations? Means according to the law! To regulations as written. Where is this regulation mentioned in the Code of Federal Regulations, this “standard” co-payment you talk about, for $16 split pill supplies? Where, counsel Taylor, does it mention increased co-payment cost for one of two (2) exact duplicate 30-day prescription supplies? Other than my example, where is it mentioned 15 pills is less than 30-day supply? “The Administrative Procedure Act requires that agencies publish administrative regulations in the Federal register before they can be legally effective.” Where?
    The VA, and the BVA , they want me to pass on, disappear. When that happens, veterans you lose. They don’t want you to win. However, this claim will live on, when other veterans think it’s important enough of a veteran’s issue to file a claim. Turned down by the RO, it’s (BVA) $50 filing fee is well spent. A younger veteran, whose prescription requires splitting, and over-charged, can file right now, and can keep playing the same silly game that the VA and the BVA insists on playing, just as long as they can.

    • William Says:

      The question of excessive copay for VA split pill prescriptions has been settled. Even though the VA mentions their concern for “reasonable charges.., billings practices closer to industry standard charge structures and billing practices”, and the question of “actual cost of dispensing” , veterans will continue to be overcharged for spilt pill prescriptions. The United States Court of Appeals for veterans’ Claims has made their ruling. A two(2) to one(1) decision. Judge Hagel, dissented. Who found the ruling, “..arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion, or otherwise not in accordance with the law.” filed a separate opinion. His comments, in brief follow.

      NO. 09-112 (Decided April 11, 2011)

      “HAGEL, Judge, joins, concurring in part and dissenting in part: I concur with the majority’s
      conclusion that the plain and unambiguous language of 38 U.S.C. § 1722A(a)(1) requires a veteran
      to pay a full copayment for a 30-day supply of medication, without regard to the dosage or number
      of pills prescribed to the veteran. I write separately, however, to express my disagreement with the
      majority’s conclusion that the phrase “cost to the Secretary for medication,” as used in section
      1722A(a)(2), is susceptible to more than one interpretation.”

      “When a pure question of law, such as the interpretation of a statute, is at issue, the Court
      reviews the conclusions of the Board de novo, without deference. Smith v. Gober, 14 Vet.App. 227,
      230 (2000). As explained above, after reviewing the language of section 1722A, I would conclude
      that the plain and unambiguous language of subsection (a)(2) prohibits the Secretary from requiring
      a veteran to pay an amount in excess of the cost to the Secretary for each 30-day supply of
      medication furnished to him or her, without regard to the administrative costs incurred by the
      Secretary in actually dispensing such medication. I would therefore conclude that the Board’s
      interpretation of that provision was arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion, or otherwise not in
      accordance with the law. See Kent v. Principi, 389 F.3d 1380, 1384 (2004) (holding that the
      “arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion, or otherwise not in accordance with the law” standard
      of review “contemplates de novo review of questions of law”). Accordingly, I would set aside the
      Board’s December 2008 decision to the extent that it concluded that the appellant’s copayment was
      not excessive under section 1722A(a)(2) and would remand the matter for further development and
      readjudication consistent with a proper interpretation of section 1722A(a)(2).
      Lastly, I understand that some might say that the interpretation that I express would place
      an unnecessary accounting burden on VA. The calculation that I believe the statute requires VA to
      make in these instances is, however, routinely made up front by private pharmacies when
      determining the profit margin sought on each drug dispensed to their customers. Thus, I do not
      believe that such a calculation places an unreasonable burden on VA. As a result, I do not believe
      that my interpretation of section 1722A produces an absurd result”.

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  12. Fred Rendon Jr Says:

    The VA has been playing with my claim for thirty five years and I still have a appeal waiting for a decision with the Court of Veterans appeals.

    • Roger Brooks Says:

      annd is present at the bva why don,t some one do something they are using the money that for claims i think will be military coup some so many veterans screw over.

  13. Steve Hudson Says:

    As a former dir of a county veterans office for twenty years, I am aware of concerns and problems within the VA system. As long as there are big bonuses for VA execs within the hospital, Visn or Washington, the problems with ever increase on all levels. To award admin people bonuses for cost cutting indicates they, the Sec of the VA and its staff are intending to run the VA as if it were a business instead of a service to our country’s veterans.

  14. John T Gillespie Says:

    Cincinnati VA is next to get their head on chopping block for cover up missing patient data not done and cross contamination issue in respiratory.A bully boss Mary Brock who is covering up bad behavior which allows patient neglect and cross contamination I have been bullied for 2 years now So has my former boss of 14 years .Respiratory is bad to the bone and I plan to expose all so get ready for an eye opener and Linda Smith who was informed and also covered it up

  15. John T Gillespie Says:

    They allow resp therapist to use government computers to play games excessively,send filthy crude jokes and degrade women all the time and nothing was down Illegal dvds were brought in and respirstory therapists bought htem There was never a report of both illegal activities of making and resp mtherapist purchasing them ever night Oh bad behavior now comes out

  16. John T Gillespie Says:

    My estimate of not doing oxygen saturationns on the required patients by the group was well over 5000 and it is still going on this very day They are terrible on admitting this.If all this wasnt covered up than the VA reports look very very bad.Mr. Schinecki they are bullies and they laugh at you cause they know they can get away with it.Policy and procedure is not followed bullies bullying other bullies

  17. John T Gillespie Says:

    I was fired over my allegations I have detailed notes to send Washington or Congress or both .I hope Mr scehecki wants to see my detail notes There is no doubt they are totally corrupt.I challenge you to ask me to Washington I am not afraid to take the bullies down for bad behavior The veterans dont need a second more of the corruption

  18. John T Gillespie Says:

    Sadly some VA official will role out the excuses that they need retrained NO NO NO they blantatly knew what they were doing and disregarded our vets They are getting away with it .Why does the VA condone what I showed the director Linda Smith was total disregard for policy and procedure and bad behavior Move her to Dayton to hide out while some one investigates thats what they did with the director of Dayton when he was being investigated He hid out at Cincinnati ha ha lol what a joke

  19. John T Gillespie Says:

    If anyone reads my comments I beleive I should be back in the Cincinnati Respiratory department right now to take down these bullies I am not afraid any more ,If Cincinnati condones their bad behavior and cussing and illegal dvd watching and missing oxygen saturations and not using filters on cpap equipment and covering up this blatant corruption let me investigate I am best for the job.Please let everyone know what is going on Our vets should march on the Cincinnati VAS and stop the corruption

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